At a recent meeting of the Churches Inter-Religious Network we discussed an interesting question: ‘Does the Holy Spirit work through people of other faiths and religions and not just Christians and the Church?’ It was a discussion with many different points of view – some said yes, others no, some said possibly through individuals but not through the religions themselves. Other perspectives would be welcome!
Tags: holy, interfaith, spirit
Views: 94
Permalink Reply by Peter Bowles on If you draw a distinction between 'working though' people of other faiths and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, then I suppose yes. I think it would be unwise of anyone to suggest that there are people through whom He cannot work (ie make something happen), just as the kings of Babylon and Persia, and Pharaoh were carrying out God's will.
Of course, the Holy Spirit is at work in every person of another faith (or none) if and they turn to Jesus.
Permalink Reply by Christopher John Sissons on I find it difficult to see how the Holy Spirit could not work through people of other faiths. Missio Dei implies God has gone before Christians and prepares the way. I was reading something by Anthony de Mello last night, where he was discussing the Jesus Prayer and described how Ghandi used a Hindu equivalent.
I've read that John Wesley believed people of other traditions could be justified but not sanctified. I'm not quite sure what he meant but it sounds as if he recognised the presence of the Holy Spirit in people of other faiths. I suspect his knowledge of other faiths was limited, compared with ours today, and he would have been clearer had he more experience.
Permalink Reply by Adrian Glasspole on Yes and No. A typical answer from a Messianic Jew, I suppose!
"Yes" in that He can and does, as has been pointed out, through the Paroh and so on.
"No", in that, as He cannot lie, He therefore cannot fully work / speak through those who deny truths.
Permalink Reply by Peter Bowles on And that's the vital thing. We should not trick ourselves in to thinking that having the Holy Spirit work 'through' someone is the same as the indwelling of the Holy Spirit which comes with salvation.
Adrian Glasspole said:
Yes and No. A typical answer from a Messianic Jew, I suppose!
"Yes" in that He can and does, as has been pointed out, through the Paroh and so on.
"No", in that, as He cannot lie, He therefore cannot fully work / speak through those who deny truths.
Permalink Reply by Zac Varghese on
Thanks. I do think Holy Spirit works through people of other faiths and religions.
God came in search of us. One of the early Church Fathers, Irenaeus, said that God became a son of man in order that we might become sons of God. As we are children of one God, His blessings are open to every one of us irrespective of our religious affiliations.
It is not possible to comprehend the mystery of the incarnation or the working of the Holy Spirit. Cardinal Hume said, “Mysteries are profound truths beyond the grasps of unaided intellects, yet yielding their riches to humble and prayerful.” When Augustine rebuked a boy on the seashore of his foolish efforts in trying to empty an ocean into a small hole in the sand using a bucket, the boy replied, “And you’re wasting your time writing a book about God, you will never get God into a book.” Our minds are not just capable of comprehending God in all his glory and majesty. St. Paul realised this when he wrote: “Now we see it in a mirror, dimly, but then we see face to face”
God pours into us his love. Everyone who loves God ‘abides in God and God abides in him’ (1 John 4:16). Holy Spirit cannot be considered as a cherished possession of the members of the Church. We need to free ourselves from such a narrow sectarian creed. My limited understanding is that Holy Spirit works within individuals and people with indwelling Spirit see the divinity in other people and respect them for that. St. Paul’s ministry to Gentiles showed us how this amazing grace is open to everyone in this world.
Zac Varghese
Permalink Reply by Peter Bowles on That all sounds very noble, but Jesus made bold claims.
Among them, John 14:6 "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."
Jesus' claim is unique, and exclusive. Whilst there is a great deal which is seen in a mirror darkly, there is also revelation.
The blessings of God are certainly open to all people, but they come through Jesus, made possible by his death on the cross.
In Acts 17 Paul addressed the people of Athens, among other things he said "In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent." He doesn't mince his words.
Thanks. I do think Holy Spirit works through people of other faiths and religions.
God came in search of us. One of the early Church Fathers, Irenaeus, said that God became a son of man in order that we might become sons of God. As we are children of one God, His blessings are open to every one of us irrespective of our religious affiliations.
It is not possible to comprehend the mystery of the incarnation or the working of the Holy Spirit. Cardinal Hume said, “Mysteries are profound truths beyond the grasps of unaided intellects, yet yielding their riches to humble and prayerful.” When Augustine rebuked a boy on the seashore of his foolish efforts in trying to empty an ocean into a small hole in the sand using a bucket, the boy replied, “And you’re wasting your time writing a book about God, you will never get God into a book.” Our minds are not just capable of comprehending God in all his glory and majesty. St. Paul realised this when he wrote: “Now we see it in a mirror, dimly, but then we see face to face”
God pours into us his love. Everyone who loves God ‘abides in God and God abides in him’ (1 John 4:16). Holy Spirit cannot be considered as a cherished possession of the members of the Church. We need to free ourselves from such a narrow sectarian creed. My limited understanding is that Holy Spirit works within individuals and people with indwelling Spirit see the divinity in other people and respect them for that. St. Paul’s ministry to Gentiles showed us how this amazing grace is open to everyone in this world.
Zac Varghese
Permalink Reply by Christopher John Sissons on John 14:6 is frequently mentioned in this connection but of course it is ambiguous. You are taking it to mean that there is one way that has to be deliberatly chosen. It could equally mean anyone who has found the Father has inevitably found the way. The proclamation of Jesus is closely linked with the identification of Jesus at work in the lives of others.
Jesus is unique, but exclusive? Where's the value in that? If Jesus is exclusive this means he is only for the small numbers who name him but those who name him are the leaven, the means by which salvation is available to all humanity. Ultimately, someone who knows Jesus will recognise him but not through those who claim he is exclusive.
Peter Bowles said:
That all sounds very noble, but Jesus made bold claims.
Among them, John 14:6 "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."
Jesus' claim is unique, and exclusive. Whilst there is a great deal which is seen in a mirror darkly, there is also revelation.
The blessings of God are certainly open to all people, but they come through Jesus, made possible by his death on the cross.
In Acts 17 Paul addressed the people of Athens, among other things he said "In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent." He doesn't mince his words.
Zac Varghese said:
Thanks. I do think Holy Spirit works through people of other faiths and religions.
God came in search of us. One of the early Church Fathers, Irenaeus, said that God became a son of man in order that we might become sons of God. As we are children of one God, His blessings are open to every one of us irrespective of our religious affiliations.
It is not possible to comprehend the mystery of the incarnation or the working of the Holy Spirit. Cardinal Hume said, “Mysteries are profound truths beyond the grasps of unaided intellects, yet yielding their riches to humble and prayerful.” When Augustine rebuked a boy on the seashore of his foolish efforts in trying to empty an ocean into a small hole in the sand using a bucket, the boy replied, “And you’re wasting your time writing a book about God, you will never get God into a book.” Our minds are not just capable of comprehending God in all his glory and majesty. St. Paul realised this when he wrote: “Now we see it in a mirror, dimly, but then we see face to face”
God pours into us his love. Everyone who loves God ‘abides in God and God abides in him’ (1 John 4:16). Holy Spirit cannot be considered as a cherished possession of the members of the Church. We need to free ourselves from such a narrow sectarian creed. My limited understanding is that Holy Spirit works within individuals and people with indwelling Spirit see the divinity in other people and respect them for that. St. Paul’s ministry to Gentiles showed us how this amazing grace is open to everyone in this world.
Zac Varghese
Permalink Reply by Peter Bowles on I don't really see how John 14:6 it is ambiguous, but it's not alone in claiming that forgiveness of sin comes though Jesus alone.
In Acts 4:12 Peter says: "Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.”
In Matthew 28 Jesus claims all authority in heaven and on earth, and commands the disciples to make more disciples throughout the earth.
By saying that Jesus claims to be exclusive I mean that he claims to be the only person by which sin is dealt with, which excludes all religious observance and ritual which purports to bring the adherent closer to God.
Christopher John Sissons said:
John 14:6 is frequently mentioned in this connection but of course it is ambiguous. You are taking it to mean that there is one way that has to be deliberatly chosen. It could equally mean anyone who has found the Father has inevitably found the way. The proclamation of Jesus is closely linked with the identification of Jesus at work in the lives of others.
Jesus is unique, but exclusive? Where's the value in that? If Jesus is exclusive this means he is only for the small numbers who name him but those who name him are the leaven, the means by which salvation is available to all humanity. Ultimately, someone who knows Jesus will recognise him but not through those who claim he is exclusive.
Permalink Reply by Christopher John Sissons on Yes of course. The ambiguity is not in whether Jesus is the source of salvation but whether you interpet this in an exclusive or inclusive way. If I am saved it is through the way of Jesus. The question is whether I need to know this. Do we assume everyone who does not claim to be a Christian is not saved? Why would we assume this? Someone who is saved will recognise Jesus as their saviour.
Wesley seems to have believed salvation (justification) is possible outside the Christian faith. It is however, only possible to get so far.
Your Acts passage seems to carry the same ambiguity as John. The Matthew passage does seem particularly relevant to me. The disciples are to proclaim the good news, the response they receive is from those who recognise Jesus through the power of the Holy Spirit. At that point the church recognises that person as saved and part of the community of the saved. It's difficult to see how proclaimation can have any effect if people are not ready to hear it.
My own conversion many years ago was as the result of an encounter with an evangelist. What infuriated me was what I perceived as the exclusive views of Christians, ready to condemn anyone to hell who had not heard the Gospel. What he said was that when they die, they're given a copy of the Gospel to read. It's easy to fault the theology here but that encounter showed me that not all Christians believe those who believe differently are necessarily condemned.
Permalink Reply by Peter Bowles on I think I need to get back to basics with what I'm trying to say here....are bullet points too brutal for this? Lets see.:
Do we have common ground on any of these points? It is clear that we have divergent views, I'm guessing that at some point they must therefore converge.
Christopher John Sissons said:
Yes of course. The ambiguity is not in whether Jesus is the source of salvation but whether you interpet this in an exclusive or inclusive way. If I am saved it is through the way of Jesus. The question is whether I need to know this. Do we assume everyone who does not claim to be a Christian is not saved? Why would we assume this? Someone who is saved will recognise Jesus as their saviour.
Wesley seems to have believed salvation (justification) is possible outside the Christian faith. It is however, only possible to get so far.
Your Acts passage seems to carry the same ambiguity as John. The Matthew passage does seem particularly relevant to me. The disciples are to proclaim the good news, the response they receive is from those who recognise Jesus through the power of the Holy Spirit. At that point the church recognises that person as saved and part of the community of the saved. It's difficult to see how proclaimation can have any effect if people are not ready to hear it.
My own conversion many years ago was as the result of an encounter with an evangelist. What infuriated me was what I perceived as the exclusive views of Christians, ready to condemn anyone to hell who had not heard the Gospel. What he said was that when they die, they're given a copy of the Gospel to read. It's easy to fault the theology here but that encounter showed me that not all Christians believe those who believe differently are necessarily condemned.
Permalink Reply by Christopher John Sissons on I don't disagree with any of that but it does not necessarily lead to your interpretation of John 4:16. Your penultimnate bullet starts 'on hearing the Gospel' (1) what of those who do not hear it? (2) what of those who hear Christians as prejudiced and exclusive (which can happen)? (3) even if they hear something along the lines of your series of bullets, you know the Christian faith is as much of the heart as of the mind, it isn't a formula. If it were a formula then it would be salvation through our own efforts.
Salvation is the work of the Holy Spirit and we as Christians are invited to join in the work. This may be a species of collaboration but it is ultimately the work of the Holy Spirit. It is not for us to determine who is and is not saved. The exceptions are (1) assurance we have in terms of our personal faith, and (2) that we can rely on those who share the same baptism. Beyond that we have no way of knowing who is or is not saved.
I do not therefore let people of other faiths off the hook, we all need to take our faith seriously but in being faithful to my own tradition I expect others to be equally faithful to their own. This enables us to explore our faiths together. I'm not going tell anyone they're damned because they don't believe as I do. What would be the point in that?
Peter Bowles said:
I think I need to get back to basics with what I'm trying to say here....are bullet points too brutal for this? Lets see.:
- Our natural state, and natural position before God is one of deserved condemnation.
- Because human's are spiritual as well as physical, religions have developed over time. They generally teach that there are things you must do, or say, or believe in order to gain some benefit (either here now or in the future, or after death). All of this is futile, and lots of it is idolatry (worshipping created things rather than the creator).
- God is sovereign and loving, so rather than dealing with humanity as we deserve he took action and, after thousands of years of promises and preparation, God became man. Jesus was born and died. The only truly innocent person.
- When Jesus died he took the punishment that we (humanity) deserve, and forgiveness became possible.
- Forgiveness is a free gift of God, neither earned nor deserved.
- On hearing the Gospel there is a response, to either accept God's offer of forgiveness or to reject it. We are called to accept.
- The good news of forgiveness of sins through Jesus' death on the cross is incompatible with other religious belief. If someone turns to Jesus as their Lord and saviour they must put whatever religious belief (or lack thereof) they previously held, behind them.
Do we have common ground on any of these points? It is clear that we have divergent views, I'm guessing that at some point they must therefore converge.
Christopher John Sissons said:Yes of course. The ambiguity is not in whether Jesus is the source of salvation but whether you interpet this in an exclusive or inclusive way. If I am saved it is through the way of Jesus. The question is whether I need to know this. Do we assume everyone who does not claim to be a Christian is not saved? Why would we assume this? Someone who is saved will recognise Jesus as their saviour.
Wesley seems to have believed salvation (justification) is possible outside the Christian faith. It is however, only possible to get so far.
Your Acts passage seems to carry the same ambiguity as John. The Matthew passage does seem particularly relevant to me. The disciples are to proclaim the good news, the response they receive is from those who recognise Jesus through the power of the Holy Spirit. At that point the church recognises that person as saved and part of the community of the saved. It's difficult to see how proclaimation can have any effect if people are not ready to hear it.
My own conversion many years ago was as the result of an encounter with an evangelist. What infuriated me was what I perceived as the exclusive views of Christians, ready to condemn anyone to hell who had not heard the Gospel. What he said was that when they die, they're given a copy of the Gospel to read. It's easy to fault the theology here but that encounter showed me that not all Christians believe those who believe differently are necessarily condemned.
Permalink Reply by Trevor Hall on I find it fascinating the the New Testament doesn't seem to show any examples of those who are 'saved' but don't confess Jesus as their saviour. Whatever possibilities may or may not exist I think the discussion is a bit academic. Jesus said he came to give us life and life in abundance. Arguably you could consider that you could have an abundant life through Jesus without knowing it but I find it unlikely. Equally as Romans 10:9 says "If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." I think we can be sure that salvation is found through both knowing and confessing Jesus as our Lord.
As for the Holy Spirit I would agree with many others. The Holy Spirit can use and work through others but the infilling of the Holy Spirit is a work of salvation.
Christopher John Sissons said:
I don't disagree with any of that but it does not necessarily lead to your interpretation of John 4:16. Your penultimnate bullet starts 'on hearing the Gospel' (1) what of those who do not hear it? (2) what of those who hear Christians as prejudiced and exclusive (which can happen)? (3) even if they hear something along the lines of your series of bullets, you know the Christian faith is as much of the heart as of the mind, it isn't a formula. If it were a formula then it would be salvation through our own efforts.
Salvation is the work of the Holy Spirit and we as Christians are invited to join in the work. This may be a species of collaboration but it is ultimately the work of the Holy Spirit. It is not for us to determine who is and is not saved. The exceptions are (1) assurance we have in terms of our personal faith, and (2) that we can rely on those who share the same baptism. Beyond that we have no way of knowing who is or is not saved.
I do not therefore let people of other faiths off the hook, we all need to take our faith seriously but in being faithful to my own tradition I expect others to be equally faithful to their own. This enables us to explore our faiths together. I'm not going tell anyone they're damned because they don't believe as I do. What would be the point in that?
Peter Bowles said:I think I need to get back to basics with what I'm trying to say here....are bullet points too brutal for this? Lets see.:
- Our natural state, and natural position before God is one of deserved condemnation.
- Because human's are spiritual as well as physical, religions have developed over time. They generally teach that there are things you must do, or say, or believe in order to gain some benefit (either here now or in the future, or after death). All of this is futile, and lots of it is idolatry (worshipping created things rather than the creator).
- God is sovereign and loving, so rather than dealing with humanity as we deserve he took action and, after thousands of years of promises and preparation, God became man. Jesus was born and died. The only truly innocent person.
- When Jesus died he took the punishment that we (humanity) deserve, and forgiveness became possible.
- Forgiveness is a free gift of God, neither earned nor deserved.
- On hearing the Gospel there is a response, to either accept God's offer of forgiveness or to reject it. We are called to accept.
- The good news of forgiveness of sins through Jesus' death on the cross is incompatible with other religious belief. If someone turns to Jesus as their Lord and saviour they must put whatever religious belief (or lack thereof) they previously held, behind them.
Do we have common ground on any of these points? It is clear that we have divergent views, I'm guessing that at some point they must therefore converge.
Christopher John Sissons said:Yes of course. The ambiguity is not in whether Jesus is the source of salvation but whether you interpet this in an exclusive or inclusive way. If I am saved it is through the way of Jesus. The question is whether I need to know this. Do we assume everyone who does not claim to be a Christian is not saved? Why would we assume this? Someone who is saved will recognise Jesus as their saviour.
Wesley seems to have believed salvation (justification) is possible outside the Christian faith. It is however, only possible to get so far.
Your Acts passage seems to carry the same ambiguity as John. The Matthew passage does seem particularly relevant to me. The disciples are to proclaim the good news, the response they receive is from those who recognise Jesus through the power of the Holy Spirit. At that point the church recognises that person as saved and part of the community of the saved. It's difficult to see how proclaimation can have any effect if people are not ready to hear it.
My own conversion many years ago was as the result of an encounter with an evangelist. What infuriated me was what I perceived as the exclusive views of Christians, ready to condemn anyone to hell who had not heard the Gospel. What he said was that when they die, they're given a copy of the Gospel to read. It's easy to fault the theology here but that encounter showed me that not all Christians believe those who believe differently are necessarily condemned.
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